Accessibility in the digital Workplace - Interview with Stefan Wilke

This is the transcript of a German language podcast. It was optimized with ChatGPT. All inaccuracies and spelling mistakes are mine.

Domingos: Welcome to a new podcast about digital accessibility. Today I have an exciting guest with me, Stefan Wilke. First of all, thank you, Stefan, for taking the time to talk to me about this topic.

Stefan: You're welcome, thank you for the invitation.

Domingos: Our listeners would be interested to know who you are. Could you please introduce yourself?

About Stefan

Stefan: I'm Stefan Wilke, 60 years old in July, married and have three adult children. I am legally blind and can only see about 2%. Since I have always had poor eyesight and the 9% eventually became just 2%, it is challenging, but I can't say what it's like to see everything. I have been managing director of Quickstep GmbH since 2012 and also managing director of MindTags Group GmbH since 2020. I live in sunny southern Baden, near Karlsruhe.

Domingos: Thank you for bringing that up. Could you perhaps briefly explain what the companies you founded and manage as managing director do exactly?

Stefan: Yes, of course. Quickstep GmbH is a mobile vocational training program that was founded in 2012. It arose from a personal experience because I had to adapt the way I work due to my changed vision. I completed a four-month program in a stationary vocational training center and realized that there had to be another way. There were too many differences in performance in the group I was in. The idea behind it is actually quite simple: we come to people's homes so that no one has to travel away. This means we include all relevant elements such as the world of work, career, school, family, leisure activities and dealing with disabilities. We train people exactly what they need, at their own pace and at the point they are at. The advantage is that we finish much faster because we only do one-on-one training and in German, English, French, Spanish, Arabic and Russian. We also have 16 employees, some of whom have disabilities themselves. When we go to people, we practically only have mobile workstations because otherwise we would simply have to travel too far. Quickstep is characterized by the fact that everything is digitally accessible. Everything that comes in through the mail is scanned and our CRM software, web cloud and websites can be entered and edited by the employees themselves. We have been working like this for 10 or 11 years now.

Domingos: What does the Mindtags Group do?

Stefan: The Mindtags Group GmbH is developing an indoor navigation system that works without the Internet. This solution is based on an app and a Bluetooth system that is simply hung up or set up in the building. Whenever you pass by it, you get directions or information that you need. It works without the Internet and users can manage the content themselves. In this way, we have closed a gap for blind people who should be able to move around buildings independently in accordance with DIN standard 18040. We have also found that what works for the blind can also be used for the deaf, in plain language and for the deaf-blind, as the content can also be read out via a Braille display. In this way, we have developed a solution that is suitable for all target groups. The content can be displayed in any language, visually and specifically for the blind. It is an open interface system that can also display timetables and other information that can also be maintained by the user. We use it to equip train stations, town halls, retirement homes, museums and rehabilitation clinics.

Domingos: Many people come to you who have a disability or whose eyesight has deteriorated. I would be particularly interested in knowing: What general challenges do these people face when using digital Technologies of modern workforce?

Stefan: That is a very exciting topic. From the outside it may look as if Germany is a leader in digital technology, but in reality we have one of the worst internet systems in Europe or even worldwide. I was in Mongolia and it works better there.

We have many isolated solutions and numerous digital products that don't really work - they're all banana products that ripen with the customer. In addition, these solutions are mostly designed for the sighted world. Although there are standards everywhere and everything is described how it should work, it is not difficult to implement. You don't need isolated solutions either, and it isn't more expensive.

The customers who come to us are often faced with the challenge of how to submit an application or what to do if they need a certain type of support. These questions are common. You can achieve a lot, especially with training for mobile devices. If you show people how to use a scanner and convert the information into a readable Word document, a lot opens up. But as soon as you leave your comfort zone, you are often overwhelmed.

It's the same for other people: when we have to go out into the outside world, there is a lack of accessible digitality. You always need assistance, which is often not available for people who have just gone blind because they first have to go through the entire application process. In this situation, they are often really lost.

Domingos: So what problems are there in the world of work? Many people probably don't return to work after retraining. Do they cope well with the programs that are used there, or not? What would you say from your perspective?

Stefan: There are two perspectives. The first perspective is that if you get good advice and have solid planning, a lot can be dealt with. It is important to ask beforehand what programs people use at work. Do they have a Citrix server or do they use everything on local computers? With this information, you can take a lot into account.

However, some programs still remain problematic, especially if you work in the field of social legislation and administration. These programs are often extremely complex and cannot be customized - it's simply not possible.

And that makes the situation difficult. Even if the customer is well trained, these rigid systems cannot be customized, so you often have to rely on a mixed workstation or a lot of assistance. However, if you go out of administration and find employers who prefer open source solutions - I've seen this more often recently - or if you are self-employed and can't see anything, you can make documentation systems such as CRM systems based on open source completely accessible. The visually impaired or blind user can work well with them. In rigid systems, such as those used by the employment agency, which develops everything in Nuremberg, on the other hand, it becomes problematic because 90% of these systems are not accessible.

Yes, there are a lot of people working at this agency and that's just difficult. In situations like that, you feel powerless. Employees are often frustrated, not because of a lack of competence, but because of the rigidity of the system.

Stefan: The interesting question I always ask myself is: if these standards exist and tenders are issued, who actually checks them? Why do such solutions come about? Why are many medium-sized companies further ahead than the authorities in this regard? It becomes really problematic if, for example, you have customers at Ernst & Young and the parent company is an American company. You're completely lost. The programmer changes the colors of the buttons every week, and that naturally leads to despair. Or another example: if they receive the data from us that is necessary for the technical equipment - i.e. how fast the RAM has to be and what kind of processor is needed for the screen reader or magnification to work properly - and then I'm on site with an assistant and see that the computer is already five years old, then you shouldn't be surprised that the employee is frustrated. He can cut his toenails, but he can't work.

What should employers consider for disabled people?

Domingos: I can confirm that. I think you have already partially answered the next question, but we can go into it in more detail. What should those responsible, usually the employers, consider when they develop programs themselves or have them developed or provide web applications? What should they pay attention to if they want to employ people with disabilities or the visually impaired?

Stefan: The first thing that is important is a good specification. The entrepreneur who needs something should think carefully about what the program should be able to do. Is there a quantity limit? What exactly should the program do? Then you look, as was the case with us, to see whether there are programs that meet these requirements. We would never have thought that we could find something on the European market that would be suitable as an accessible CRM or documentation system. We finally found a suitable tool in the open source application of the English healthcare system, called "Sweet CRM".

This means that you always need good planning. Please handle it like in the automotive industry, which also needed 20 years to understand that not only engineers but also craftsmen have to be involved in the process. A car mechanic can say to the engineers: "Your idea is great, but the car doesn't drive." It's the same with IT projects. Get someone from the field, for example a programmer who sits right next to a blind user who is testing the program. And then sit down with the users. Get user feedback early on and not just the developers. The users can tell you what you really need.

If you neglect the users, you rarely get good results. Everything else is political rhetoric and often sounds better than it is. Good planning is the core. The exciting thing is that everything you need is already on the market. You just need to be calm and find someone who can plan well. Above all, you should involve someone who can help you break out of your own way of thinking and ask weird questions. I do that a lot and sometimes I drive the programmers to despair. But on second thought, they realize: "Oh, look, that's how it works."

If you question the expertise of the experts and are open to it, I think it will get better.

What can Quickstep do

Domingos: Exactly. Can Quickstep help in general? You are primarily aimed at blind people, i.e. individuals. Can you also support employers or other organizations who want to make their working environment more accessible?

Stefan: Yes, definitely! We have different approaches. On the one hand, we offer advice if nothing is available yet. Then we come back to the topic of specifications: What do you want to implement? What is already available on the market, or what can we develop together? This comes from our own concerns - we need a cloud solution that is web-based, accessible and independent of volume.

What we can offer are CRM systems, databases and ERP systems that are wonderfully usable for sighted people and can also be designed to be accessible for blind users. All of our employees no longer need assistance for internal documentation. That is the first point, and of course it can also be implemented for freelancers.

We recently had a blind professional carer and the programs available on the market were not usable for him. So we drew up a specification with him and developed a system that he can use. These open source products have more programmers than SAP and they will not disappear from the market. And above all, they are open to interfaces.

Another point is that many people believe that we have to make the existing market accessible for blind people. But that doesn't work because there are so many different tools that it's almost impossible to do that. The simplest solution is to create something of your own. That's what we did. That means that based on the specifications, we can create a website structure and the entire backend - the dashboard behind it - that is completely accessible. All users can then enter texts, appointments, calendar links, images and image descriptions independently without needing assistance.

If you make it really simple, then you've reached the point. OK, what is my own folder structure? So, how did I scan my personal documents? And if I want to send them by email, how do I do it quickly? That's the first step, so to speak. Our motto is always: We look for solutions. We're interested in how it works, not whether it works, because there are already enough problems. So let's find solutions together. We like to invite lots of people because we're always "up to the task" of creating surveys or finding out that something isn't working. But let's still look for where it is possible.

I can't tell you where it ends. It only started with the websites two years ago. The CRM was a coincidence because we have already implemented it for four employers. They agreed and said: "We'll throw out the old stuff and use this." So it developed - it wasn't planned, but it happened.

Domingos: I find the idea of ​​open source really appealing. Of course there are applications like LibreOffice that are not really easy to use from my perspective. But there are also other systems like CMS that I used to use, such as Drupal or WordPress. Linux is also easy to use for some people, but not for me. I would say that every authority, every municipality and every state ministry somehow develops its own software with Internet Explorer and some outdated scripts. That cannot be the future. Software development in the area of ​​accessibility cannot continue like this.

Stefan: Yes, and the common killer argument that always comes up is: "Open source is open and not protected." That's not true. If we want this CRM, we offer the customer the option of either staying on our server or managing it themselves. Then the matter is sealed, unless you open it again.

Yes, so the point that the source code is obviously visible and therefore not safe is complete nonsense. I read somewhere that the federal government actually likes open source solutions. But every time the topic comes up, the answer is: "Oh no, we're not doing that yet."

Another aspect is that the more accessibility there is for everyone, the less assistance is needed. This means that the cost savings in another area of ​​social legislation will be significant.

However, this discussion often does not take place. We either talk about the lack of accessibility or about the costs, but not about the savings. The two should always be brought together. It is gratifying when a client, such as a professional advisor in the integration office, suddenly understands: "If we invest here once, we will save on assistance costs in the long term."

This overall view is important, and this is also an area in which Quickstep is good. We take responsibility for the process. We are not wise men; we are more of a research team that trains well, develops well and, above all, understands what people want. Sometimes we can offer that, sometimes we can't.

Domingos: Absolutely. I mean, the old models have served their purpose and now we need to find new solutions to the existing problems. It is important that there are solutions and that we not only talk about problems but also actively address them.

Stefan: Yes, I can give one more example at the end. When the pandemic started, all these online tools like Jitsi, Microsoft Teams, Zoom and many others suddenly came into play. Most people used Microsoft Teams. However, there are two German providers that work well in terms of data protection, one of them is Nextcloud. However, since most of them are on Microsoft Teams, we said: OK, if we have customers that we train on it, then they don't need two manuals. We can integrate the commands directly into the manual.

This is the kind of collaboration that I would prefer and would like to see from many others. If you consider what skills are available in our scene and if these skills are bundled correctly, you could actually achieve a lot. I would like us to build a kind of IT forge where we say: "Now let's get to it! If you can't do it, we'll do it ourselves."

Domingos: That is definitely a very good wish. I would also like to end the podcast with that. Thank you for taking the time for this podcast.

Quickstep GmbH

More on Accessibility in the Workplace

• The Advantages of Remote Work for Accessibility
• Are blind persons excluded from the modern world of digital work?
• You want to employ more disabled people? Then make your website accessible
• Visual Impairment in the Workplace