Bringing digital Accessibility into the Mainstream - a talk with the Web Developer Anne Bovelett

This is the transcript of a German language podcast. I speak to web developer and digital accessibility activist Anne Bovelett. As always, any inaccuracies and typos are my and my transcription Software faults.

Domingos: So welcome to a new podcast on digital accessibility. Today I have another exciting guest with me, Anne Bovelett. Anne does a lot in the area of digital accessibility and WordPress, gives a lot of lectures and so on. Anne, first of all, thank you very much for taking the time for this podcast. Maybe you could briefly introduce yourself to those listening, i.e. what is your background, where are you from, what do you do.

Anne's background

Anne: Thank you very much for inviting me. I am very honored. Your podcast is a well-known podcast in this area and I'm always happy when someone invites me and says I'd like to talk to you.

Yes, the good understander might hear pretty quickly that I have an accent. I am native Dutch. This means that for me the dative and genitive knock each other out. And accusative is the laughing third. And I do a lot of literal translation from Dutch to German. So if there's anything that you think, Anne, what you're saying I can't understand, then tell me.

So I've been in the field of web creation for a long time, since 1998. In 2008 I became fully self-employed. I've been working happily and what's a big shocker for many is that it wasn't until 2020 that I discovered that I knew nothing about accessibility, but something like that. And that was really shocking.

I had often seen reports like this on social media and the like, but somehow they weren't all that well received. And then there was a Twitter report from a lady named Labrine. I also mentioned this report on my website in the blog, where I tell you how I got involved and she described how her father was so sad that he finally wanted to go online for a week without help and that didn't work again and that he is blind and that when we read the tweet we are wondering whether our site is barrier-free. Yes, that was a hammer on the head for me. Yes and then I delved into it in there, that's a bit my style, all or nothing. I dived into it and looked at it on a technical level. So I'm not a top developer, but I know a lot about HTML and CSS and that's actually one of the most important things to use semantic HTML. And then I discovered, Oh, wait, this isn't an all-without thing. There are a lot of moving parts in such a process of making a digital presence, let's say a website, barrier-free. And then realized. that many feel as if a tsunami is coming their way. This is perhaps in my world, let's put it this way, my WordPress world perhaps a little more than elsewhere, because with us all these templates, marketplaces and so on and this page builder was also created without any thought Democracy Publishing has been turned a bit into Democracy Website Creation.

And at the same time it turns out, yes, but there are a lot of nice young developers there who actually don't get any further than div and span in a very technical way for people who are not very web-technical. In HTML, roughly speaking, there is something like this 50 specific elements and they actually work like a map if you use them correctly.

And you can also use 2 elements. One is called Diff and the other is called Spam and they are like chameleons, they can look like anything, but they will never be what they look like. So. Could you actually compare? What are the names of these things that you put on the roof, at least in German, the roof at the front?

So what I mean by that, so that it's a little clearer for the listeners, is that if you take a roof tile, it's actually supposed to be made of stone, for example. But you can also make a wonderful roof tile out of cardboard. And you make it look exactly like a roof tile and use it to cover your entire house. Looks great, it's summer, everything is fine and then comes the rain and the storm. And the roof tile doesn't work. Yes, that's exactly the thing with everything that appears digitally. This is all related to HTML and CSS. No matter, the programming language that comes out is HTML. If these are cardboard roof tiles, then it won't work. Only those who are not dependent on it don't even notice it. And you think, that looks good. No, yes. When I realized that, I thought, Oh, maybe it's important to start making people realize that there are these different moving parts and that you don't always hack on developers because they Perhaps, at first, they are not even aware that they are doing something that is not right. For example, if you use a framework that somehow only spits out DIVs and SPANs. There are.

Domingos: Yes, thank you very much. First of all, are you now just doing accessibility in quotes or do you still have customers who have nothing to do with accessibility but just want any website from you?

Anne: No, I don't actually work anymore For customers who say, I don't care, I don't want to have that with all the excuses we've heard before. Which is easier at the moment than it was a few years ago, because now of course the European Accessibility Act will come into play in 2025. I will at any time if an agency comes to me directly and says, can you help me build my website or can you help me I will do everything I can to help you choose a barrier-free appearance. But I don't lose as much energy on it as I did at the beginning because I wanted to convince everyone and that almost burned me out. But what I do is give lectures to people of all walks of life, companies or the self-employed. These arguments against accessibility. How do you say then? Being able to move or turn around or yes, how to convince them of it. I'll be doing it again soon in Asia at World Camp.

I did this recently at Wordcamp Germany and this. More like my mission. And yes, I am also often employed as an accessibility coach.

Cultural differences

Domingos: What would also interest me is that you are multilingual. You can speak German, Dutch and English and you also have customers from all of these, for example customers from the Netherlands or from the English-speaking area and are there differences when it comes to the perception of accessibility or are they always the same challenges that you face?

Anne: Yes, there is a huge difference between Europe and the United States and Canada, for example. In the United States people are more aware. In certain industries, because the ADA Americans with Disabilities Act has been around for a long time. Because people are being taken to court. And that is not yet the case here. And here in Europe, for example, people are pretty relaxed, let it go, it's not all that exciting and also with the authorities. This is absolute madness in my opinion. Those who should set the good example. That they're not doing it right. But it adjusts. I notice in the Netherlands that there is more awareness because there are a few really big, well-known agencies that are really pushing the envelope. The Ali Collective. Which was partly founded by Level in Rotterdam. So this is a really great agency that really specializes in wonderful websites that are barrier-free, web shops and so on. I also notice it here in Europe in the manufacturers of software, plugins for example. It's slowly becoming clear to you. At the moment there is one here in Germany that I know well, they are called Great, are in Munich, and they have decided that it has the Accessibility Ready Output and that means that the basis under the hood is already right. That you don't have to worry about it anymore if you're not a developer. There are many, I'll say standard bearers, I think you know them all too, we can make long lists for hours. Awareness is coming now and I think it's slowly becoming noticeable.

The additional effort for accessibility

Domingos: You are closer to the practice of development than I am. I always just had to say what somebody have do, but I didn't have to implement it, so I would be interested to hear your opinion about how much additional effort it takes if I make a website barrier-free from the start compared to if I don't would.

Anne It depends. First. When do you put the point? What about from the beginning? Because many people think that right from the start, once you have put the designer on it, no, and the designer has done it too. And that there is actually a wireframe there and so on. Then you're already too late. But if you get advice right from the start, if you don't have this experience yet, if you get advice from someone who has an idea. Then in my opinion the additional effort is usually no more than 10 to 15%. It has to be wild. Will there be more? But at the beginning you will have to invest a lot of time to get everyone on the same page. That's the most important thing, once you have that, developers realize. It's not rocket science and designers initially feel threatened because they're constantly being told, you can't do it like that, contrasts aren't good, are they? The buttons are too close together. Or hey, just remember that a website can also be zoomed in. No, then they are so restricted in this no. So the quicker you get the designers to be inspired and see this as a really great creative challenge, then a project like this will go great and then the additional effort won't actually be too much. Yes, I find that hopeful too. But it also means that companies have to consider whether they should relaunch now.

Domingos: Yes, my impression is that things often fail because of the processes. So you have an established process for how you work and an agency website you have certain CMS certain framework and because you have specialized in it, so to speak, you don't want to let go of it or this process that you have once established and there Even if you call it agile project management, accessibility always comes at the end. Is that your experience too.

Anne: I'm trying to convince them that they have to do this from the start because it also costs an incredible amount of money to make something not barrier-free. But you don't notice it enough. If you as a user think, oh, I don't need anything, these barrier-free things aren't important to me. And they don't have a mouse and they have to order something from a web shop, yes, and if that's not possible with a keyboard. you also have a conversion that didn’t happen. It's also difficult to have discussions with people who think, "I don't need this."

Get people excited about accessibility

Domingos: Yes, definitely. Exactly, I think you said in our preliminary conversation that you are now concentrating more on coaching, perhaps some kind of agile coaching on the subject of accessibility. Yes, how do you go about it? The people, let's say you had people who aren't really right now. They implement the topic simply because they know it and don't really feel like it. Not really thrilled. How would you go about convincing people of this?

Anne: Well, if I'm in a company like this, it means that I've been able to convince the management that it makes sense to invest a little money. So I have the hurdle. But it wasn't that long ago that I was sitting across from 35 - 40 young people. And then I try in all possible ways to put them in the shoes of others but with experiences that they know.

And a good example of this is that I say, for example, well, you all know that. Friday evenings the exit, Saturday evenings the exit. And on Sunday you notice your fridge is empty and you're in a big city, which means you can even get something on Sunday and you come to a website because you just lost your cell phone in the disco. You come to a website and it's too bright now. That's that's when you're tired, your eyes are a lot more sensitive in all sorts of ways. Or, for example, I ask people, hey, who has ever been to a restaurant where the music was so loud? That you didn't want to go there anymore. Then the hands go up or who can read the newspaper without glasses. Yes or? And who can't? And those who can't do it then raise their hand and I have a whole list of experiences. The the.

And then I start to explain, but that's what we do. For those who have this all the time. Those who are always tired or who cannot see well. Or that. Not being able to hear well or someone who was born deaf, for example. People have no idea. I didn't have one either, but if you're born deaf, what if you don't learn the language with sound? Then you're actually always translating, as a friend explained to me. Sign language and how we speak are actually two different things, they are not the same, which means the perception is different than that of people who are not innate. Then I tell people that they actually do it with very little effort on their part. Having so much power that they have the power to simply make things better for other people. And that this can be done step by step with small things and then underlining on the left. Make understandable links.

I've also made a comparison before: Imagine you have to go to the toilet incredibly urgently. you're standing in Ikea, you're forced to go a certain way and the closets are very far away, yes. Now imagine you're in Ikea and you ask people for directions, where do I have to go to quickly go to this toilet and everyone says here. Here, here, here. Yes, do I have to go right or left, then what does it say? Yes, there was a Mihm standing here. And you're laughing now and everyone's laughing and at the same time they suddenly notice that when I make a website and I tell you something about a product, I make a blog article that has to convert too, no, I'm a blogger. Articles and these are different books because I have an affiliate account on Amazon and then instead of writing more information underlined about this book. No, order yourself. Order the book with the title. There, there, there and then underline the whole sentence. Why not. It's these, these little things. Where, for example? You can tell a lot more about it from your experience than I can.

Domingos: Yes, of course. So I always try to pick people up. And there are also some options, if you say, for example, OK, you also want your grandmother and your grandfather or your parents to still be able to use the web or perhaps also to benefit from the advantages of digitalization, for example, to have their groceries online order, and they can't do that because they may not be very tech-savvy, but sometimes they don't dare because there are so many ways to do things wrong. Or just not being able to read things, not being able to hear what's happening in the video. And then you just don't use it if you've tried it two times and failed.

Anne: Which is scary. I don't know how it works here in Germany, but in Holland you get a specific ID. This allows you to log in to all tax pages. Pension pages state insurance. You must never pass this ID on to anyone. If one of you has this login with this ID, then he can upset your life. Even there, it's all so complex that older people or people who need support for whatever reason have to hand it over. Imagine how humiliating that is. I say that to people too. Do you want to be a part of it, that in later life you or now your grandmother will humiliate you like that by having the keys to your whole and giving it to an assistant or a neighbor? Because if that goes wrong, you legally have no foot on the ground, because then they say it was their fault. No what? That's, that's also to put into people's minds. There's a great article on the Elli Collectives website in English, it's called Blind People don't visit my website, and Rian Riedfeld has a very well-known accessibility specialist who once asked people online, hey. Guys, if you are above all not dependent on accessibility, what are your annoyances on the Internet or in that regard? And she got tons of reactions, and she listed them and then she said, all the things. With the right coding and content management and design, this could have been solved or prevented.

and that brings me to another topic. Sometimes people ask me yes, if I then. Buy a software or buy a CMS or whatever. What is Accessibility Ready, what do I notice about it? And then I always say, you shouldn't really notice that. That simply has to be the case technically. What you should remember is that when you use this system to build your design, you can, for example, design elements that can get a focus. That you can influence them.

Convince female developers

Domingos: How can you convince developers in particular about accessibility? Did you find a great argument there because I think that's one of the groups. Some of them are difficult to convince, but they are simply super, super important.

Anne: Yes, it's not that easy. I don't think you can generalize here either. So if I talk to a developer, I'll be happy to let you know. So you know, you have the power, you have the opportunity to make a button and not a diff with a role as a button, because that doesn't mean anything and sometimes. I'll then press a little bit on this honorable feeling by saying, yes, if you think you're a great developer, then why is it so difficult for you to memorize 50 HTML elements. No, maybe you're too stupid here, right? But then you're a bit on the aggressive level, you know, and?

Anne: That's exactly what I want to avoid. So. I'm also part of a company called relaunchberatung.de and I get a lot of inquiries there. Then I usually call people again first and then I ask them what the situation is, do you feel like you have to do it or are you up for it or do you still have a question? You get 15 minutes from me, you can ask me anything you want, it doesn't cost anything. Because it's important that you come from the year. I don't think that's what it means, in German, in English it's called tough love, you know what I mean? When you approach someone negatively to motivate them. I think long distance doesn't work at all and fear doesn't work either. Fear is a bad advisor, you can see that in websites. I had to ask something first, because it's also for you, not just for the audience. Were you born blind or did you once see?

Domingos: I am legally blind, but I still have a small amount of vision, but that was from birth. It's gotten a little worse age-specific, but it's not much worse now than it was from birth.

Anne: Yes, well, because the reason I'm asking you is to see whether you can agree or not, but what it's really about is when you can fully see. Then you will also be influenced by everything you see, consciously or unconsciously. A friend of mine is a developer and he's incredibly fast on the computer, doesn't need a screen and I once asked him, Hey. I know developers who are fast, sighted developers. You're four times as fast, he laughed and said, yes, because I'm not distracted by what I see. And I had never looked at it that way before. But what is very important when you can see is that you also have the need. To be guided in a design. That's what influences us. And that is what can seduce us as a soul, a person, into doing something. Or not to do it. And what comes next, then the accessibility aunt or gentleman comes and they say yes, you're not allowed to do that and you're not allowed to do that and you can't use these colors and you can't do that. And then come the fear designs. And that's where the prejudice comes from. Yes, if it has to be barrier-free, that will limit everything. You can't make beautiful, exciting design, graphic design, if it has to be barrier-free, but that's because you come from this. Fear has come because you are afraid of doing it wrong. And that doesn't have to be the case. Do you understand what I mean? Because I find this an exciting dialogue with someone who is legally blind.

Accessibility and aesthetics do not contradict each other

Domingos: No, I can sign 100%. Well, that's just a prejudice, but I also believe that it comes from the fact that a lot of things that are barrier-free just don't look nice, i.e. a lot of government sites, but also a lot of buildings where you then add a wheelchair ramp afterwards. That just doesn't look appealing. But I always have to say that the problem is not accessibility, but rather careless implementation.

nd dann kommt ja auch diese Sache. Ja, es ist zu teuer, das zu machen oder was auch immer. Und zum Beispiel, wenn du in der Marketingabteilung stehst und du sagst, Hey, liebe Leute, bitte die Bilder einen guten All Text drin, ne beschreibenden All Text und nicht Keyword stuffing machen. Das bringt dir nichts. Ja, und manchmal kommt dann so jemand aus einer Abteilung auf mich zu und sagt ja, aber, wir können das nicht machen, das ist so viel Arbeit, dafür haben wir keine Zeit, das ist zu teuer. Und dann habe ich gesagt, aber das musst du nicht entscheiden, das muss dein Management entscheiden.

Annes Channels

Domingos: Generally the question, you also travel a lot to bar camps, hackathons and so on. That means you can meet in person, but where can people generally follow you on social media? I don't know, are you still on x/Twitter or LinkedIn?

Anne: Yes, I tried on Mastodon for a while, but somehow I can't get it to work in my habit system. So I can be found on x/Twitter under Bovelet. So my last name is BOVELETT. You can also find me on LinkedIn and you can also find my contact details on my website. The English version is dot EU and the German version is .de. Yes, and you can also book a conversation on my website if you want to get to know each other for the first time. And you're welcome to do that. If I don't have time, I know those who do, although the number of people who can serve the market is rapidly decreasing, so it actually has to grow.

Anne's website

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