Interview with Casey Kreer on working as disabled Person in digital Accessibility

Domingos: Welcome to a new podcast on digital accessibility. Today I have another exciting guest, Casey Kreer, a digital accessibility expert. The topic is working as a disabled person in digital accessibility.

Casey: Thank you for the invitation.

About Casey

Domingos: Thank you for your time. Please introduce yourself to the listeners.

Casey: Yes, thank you for the invitation. I'm Casey. I work as a digital accessibility consultant and as a software developer. And sometimes I do a little bit of activism, trying to motivate people in public administrations to make things more digitally accessible and to ensure compliance with laws. And that's what I spend most of my time doing.

Domingos: I think you also studied something related to IT.

Casey: Exactly, I studied media informatics.

Domingos: Super exciting. You're visually impaired yourself. Would you like to talk about it?

Casey: Yes, I've had my visual impairment since birth and it's been repeatedly diagnosed through various tests. My current vision naturally varies depending on the situation, plus or minus 5%. Personally, I simply prefer the term "blind" because I've found that people generally understand a little better how much I can see, or at least not overestimate what the term "blind" means when it comes to my disability. So, I don't see that much, but I can still see a Little bit.

Domingos: Do you work visually or with a screen reader?

Casey: I work predominantly with a screen reader.

Domingos: A question that always interests people: Windows, Mac, or Linux.

Casey: I used Linux at home for a long time, but switched to Mac a few years ago, and I actually use Windows more often for work. So I know all the systems, use them all, and appreciate them all.

The Path to Digital Accessibility

Domingos: How did you get into digital accessibility?

Casey: Yes, I think I started realizing very early on, because of my visual impairment, that I could do a lot with computers and gain a lot of access to the world. I had an inclusive education, which meant I didn't necessarily have much contact with other people with visual impairments back then, and I started programming relatively early and just really tried to solve my own problems. I then programmed a web browser that came with text-to-speech functionality. So, quite simply, it wasn't anything particularly great or difficult, of course not a complete web browser engine. I think it was based on Internet Explorer or something like that back then. And at some point, the topic of gaming came up for me. I wanted to play games. That didn't go so well. Then I started writing small mods to make more things accessible and then I created small mini-games based on Minecraft, which I could then play with other people. It developed a bit, grew a bit, and eventually I had made stuff available to a few thousand people. That was my path into accessibility and usability in this technical field.

Domingos: How long have you been working in this field, and what are your current projects?

Casey: I think I've been working in this field for money since the beginning of 2021, and I've been self-employed since the end of 2022, so two and a half, three years now, not quite as long as many people. These are the veterans in the industry. And I do a lot. Mainly NGO clients and universities, for example, but also the odd cultural institution, like museums, or I once had a theater with which I worked, and I think that's really great.

Acceptance by Clients

Domingos: It's probably not always easy, working with clients as a visually impaired or blind person. Acceptance probably varies? What's your experience?

Casey: Well, when I started back then, things were different than they are today. I actually saw my visual impairment more as an advantage, a selling point for the services I offer. That was perhaps a bit unusual, because such experiences don't occur very often, and I was able to bring in everyday perspectives. Surprisingly, that played a rather minor role for me at the time. And it was often the same in my interactions with people. I was frequently confronted with software that wasn't accessible, and there was little willingness to change that.

Eventually, I reached the point where I began to express my political views online and engage in activism for greater accessibility. This led to my original clientele largely turning away from me. But then I gained a new one that was a much better fit for me. Working with this new clientele, who are often much more open-minded about accessibility, has become much more pleasant and fulfilling for me—especially with my visual impairment. The people I work with now are usually genuinely motivated to make a difference, and the issue is important to them. At least in most cases. I find that much more intense and fulfilling than working with commercially oriented clients.

Domingos: But you, like me, are also transparent about the disablity. I think it's relatively clear on your Website. So, it's not a surprise for the customer. You don't have to bring it up again every time if there's no specific reason. How do you see it?

Casey: Yes, I see it the same way. In most cases, it doesn't really matter who I work with. But it's obviously important that I can contribute my personal experiences, for example, in consultations. For me, it's strongly influenced by my visual impairment, because that's my own experience. And I've found that people understand the problems of digital accessibility much better when you show them concrete examples, when you compare things, and when you explain your thoughts on a particular topic.

Acceptance in the Accessibility Community

Domingos: That's true, the first-hand experience is very important. Most consultants can't contribute that. My impression is also that this can make a different impression on the client.

What is your experience with the acceptance of consultants with disabilities in the German accessibility community?

Casey: Well, generally, I would say that acceptance is now there, at least among the larger, better-known companies. But when it comes to real representation, things look very different. I think you can certainly confirm that from your own experience. There are simply very few people with disabilities working in this field. When I think about it, I can think of maybe a handful of people with physical disabilities who work in digital accessibility. In total, there are perhaps 500 people working in this field in Germany – and that's simply far too few considering how important this topic is. I find that many companies in the industry are still very hesitant when it comes to working directly with people with disabilities. They often don't trust us to achieve what we're actually capable of. I once had an interview at a large company in this industry, and a manager repeatedly accused me of, for example, not being able to perform contrast testing in test scenarios because I was supposedly too slow. Unfortunately, this kind of perception seems to be widespread throughout the industry.

Domingos: That's also my experience. I also applied to a large service provider, but wasn't given a reason for the rejection. How high do you estimate the proportion of people with disabilities in the German scene?

Casey: Well, it's really not that many, and what I've noticed in recent years is that more and more people are discovering that they are neurodivergent in some way and are therefore, quite rightly, calling themselves disabled. At this point, however, I would like to make a personal distinction, because neurodivergence is not usually the typical target audience for digital accessibility measures. This type of disability cannot simply be compared to a visual impairment. With a visual impairment, one could perhaps draw parallels to a motor disability, because the typical interaction patterns with software, supported by various assistive devices, are relatively similar. But with neurodivergences, it's a completely different challenge.

Domingos: What about the international scene?

Casey: There are, of course, many more companies in this field. I don't know exactly whether there are more people with disabilities overall, but there are definitely significantly more prominent personalities with disabilities. In Germany, perhaps only a few come to mind when asked about blind people in the accessibility industry—perhaps we are the two of us who would be mentioned. Internationally, however, there are many more that could be named, and they probably also have a significantly greater influence. Whether there are more overall, I can't say, though.

Domingos: Well, overall, there are of course more people with disabilities in the international scene because it's simply much larger, but we don't know if the proportion is higher.

Casey: Yes, I guess the percentage will be relatively similar.

Domingos: If you had one request for the accessibility community, whether the German or the international one, what would it be?

Casey: I would definitely encourage everyone to do truly meaningful work and not lose sight of the fact that, ultimately, we're doing work for people. Unfortunately, I think that's often forgotten. Many people are always so excited when you say, "Oh, now there's another opportunity to talk to people with disabilities." But that should be the norm. People with disabilities need to become much more visible in this industry and be significantly more integrated into the daily work of consultants. That's the only way to bring about long-term change.

We have the great motto "Nothing about us without us," which the disability rights movement repeatedly promotes. But in the accessibility community, I believe we're still a long way from that. There are entire associations and many large companies that don't employ even a single person with a disability. And these companies are the ones that shape the entire discourse and are considered official and authoritative. Perhaps we should finally move away from seeing ourselves as the ones who define what digital accessibility means and pass the ball to the associations. We could say, "Let's work on this together. We bring the technical expertise, but we also need the perspective of those affected."

Because that requires actually having the necessary technical expertise. And that goes far beyond what you can find in, for example, the WCAG (Web Content Accessibility Guidelines). I notice that many people only focus on that and spend their time testing software without using the skills they have beyond that. There's a lack of a deeper understanding of how to truly design accessibility.

Domingos: I'd also like to ask one more question, related to WCAG. Have you also found that many things, while actually quite accessible on paper, have a very poor user experience for us? So, both with screen readers and when working with the rest of the system, so that you don't have to press too many buttons at once or click three times instead of once to perform certain actions, and do you also think that the topic of user experience is simply neglected for us?

Casey: Yes, definitely. I can share a little anecdote. I recently had a customer with whom I was talking about their web shop. Their statement was: "We want to implement the basics first so that the shop is usable at all." One problem we discovered was that the menu on the mobile view was completely unusable. There was a typical hamburger menu that could be expanded, but after that, you couldn't get out. You couldn't close or use the menu. These are, of course, fundamental problems that you notice immediately.

When they finally solved this problem—which fortunately wasn't too complicated—the usability was still anything but good. I also told them that people probably wouldn't enjoy shopping in their store, even though it at least worked now. And unfortunately, that happens quite often. But I think it happens the other way around just as often. Many then say, "Yeah, OK, it might not be 100% accessible on paper, but ultimately we're doing quite well with it."

Domingos: Thank you for that assessment. Where is the best place to follow it, other than your website?

Casey: Well, my website is primarily business. If anyone wants to hire me for something, it'll probably be through this. The same goes for LinkedIn, and for anyone who wants to learn a bit about the background of the German international accessibility industry, anyone who's a bit interested in how much nonsense is going on there. Mainly on Mastodon. I'm on Chaos Social as @kc. A lot of exciting things happen there, and sometimes I write articles for various web portals where I dissect things.

Domingos: Thank you for the interview.

Casey: Thanks for the invitation.

Casey's website with further links to her other profiles

Talks with Accessibility Specialists